organic gardener & pesticide
I would like to respond to the question in the current issue about using pesticides to save a favorite plant.
I have a design/build landscape business. So I often get calls when a client's plants are under attack. In my experience, this happens for 4 reasons.
Impulse buying. The plant has no hope of surviving in the gardener's climate zone.
Wrong plant, wrong place. The plant requires a different soil type or sun instead of the shade where the gardener put it. Sometimes, the gardener's region is known to have a problem that dooms the species. Dogwood anthracnose, heavy deer predation, etc.
Inadequate preparation, usually just digging a hole (usually undersized) and stuffing the plant into it without loosening or improving the soil. Also failing to remove adjacent competitors - weeds, vines, grass - and their roots.
Poor post-planting care, usually too much or too little water.
All these are "operator errors" due to lack of knowledge or inability to commit the necessary time and/or effort.
I offer clients this spectrum of choices:
1) Do it over and do it right
2) Pay me or other experienced help to do it over and do it right
3) Throw the plant away and resist temptation next time.
On your question about organic gardening and occasional pesticide use, organic means organic. There is no "partly organic", or "usually organic". It's like being a little bit pregnant. You are, or you're not.
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(post #12020, reply #1 of 37)
You just brought up a point that has driven me nuts for many years, namely the inflexibility of the stance that you can't be a "mostly organic" gardener. I don't see why not. This inflexibility on the part of the organic crowd has turned off more people to the whole concept than you can imagine. I completely grow my vegetable garden organically, but have absolutely no qualms about watering my houseplants with that green water soluable fertilizer you can buy everywhere. My lawn also gets a very light dose of 12/12/12 once every 2 or 3 years. I'm not planning to eat the stuff and I only put on enough to keep it from totally giving up. I think growing a lush green lawn is pretty much a waste of time and resources, but on the other hand I don't want a totally bare brown patch either. But there are pesticides that are approved for organic use that I would not dream of using, ever! Just because something is made from plants does not make it harmless. Some of those organic pesticides are what you would call a broad-spectrum killer that will take out the good bugs with the bad. The only bugs I actively fight in my garden are the Colorado potato beatles. I do not use herbicides (if I want a weed gone, I pull it), fungicides, or pesticides, and non-organic fertilizers in a very limited way, and consider myself a mostly organic gardener. Total inflexibility on any subject is what makes this world a difficult place to live in sometimes. And it's NOT like being pregnant!
(post #12020, reply #2 of 37)
My husband and I are 100% organic gardeners, but I agree with you also, in that every change to lessen pesticide and fertilizer use is good. I don't think organic gardening is an exclusive club with a membership test. I love that IPM and organic concepts are becoming mainstreamed more and more. You hear it on some of the HGTV shows and Victory Gardening, and our local coop extension is becoming greener. Since they're affiliated with Cornell, they used to be big supporters of the agri-industrial chemical companies, but that's changing. (Maybe because the big corporations now have a nice side-line of organic products.)
The problem with fertilizer on your lawn is that a lot of it can wind up downstream, causing major issues for water quality in your watershed. For example, the groups trying to clean up the Chesapeake Bay have identified fertilizer contamination in the water run off from private yards as one of the main issues causing poor water quality in the Bay. To some extent that can be addressed by trying to limit the amount of water leaving your yard during storms, directing the flow from the driveway and gutters into rain gardens and cisterns instead. (But it still can go into the groundwater.)
Anyway, it's exciting that so many gardeners are doing more to lessen our impact on the health of the planet, and to create sanctuaries for wildlife. (While griping with all our hearts about what the wildlife is doing to our gardens of course, and I'm at the front of that line. )
(post #12020, reply #3 of 37)
I do think putting lots of fertilizer on lawns is a terrible thing. I spread about 10 pounds of fertilizer on the lawn about once every three years so I don't think I am causing a terrible problem. My next door neighbor puts hundreds of pounds of every chemical you can buy for lawns on his yard and runs underground sprinklers twice a day. We had to dig a deeper well because of the nitrates in the water. I would like to use that nice organic fertilizer and weed suppresent on the lawn but it is just too expensive. So I just let the weeds stay there and mow them regularly, it still looks green. I am actually trying to convert my front lawn to a thyme lawn, but it is a fairly slow process. I think this posting just hit a nerve because some organic gardeners have that all or nothing attitude, and like you I am excited that IPM is becoming more of a trend in gardening. The way I see it is every little bit of a swing to organic is a good thing, and it should be encouraged, not squelched by the all or nothing attitude. I was a long time Organic Gardener subscriber till I got totally put off by their unbending, all or nothing attitude. I am now noticing that since some of the big corporations are doing organics the prices of the products are also becoming more reasonably priced. And that's a good thing, as Martha would say.
P.S. It is snowing here! I'll try not to send it your way.
Edited 4/6/2009 7:47 pm ET by 1946
(post #12020, reply #4 of 37)
The problem becomes then where do you draw the line about which products are acceptable or unnaccetable. Are the organophosphates all acceptable? Are some of them acceptable? Are none of them acceptable? How about the glyphosate products? Are they acceptable to an organic gardener?
Since if you get your soil built up into a good, healthy condition there would be no need to use any synthetic fertilizer you could save even more money by not spreading even that 12-12-12, which is very water soluble and most of it will simply flow out of your soil with the water and pollute the ground water, something an organic gardner would not want to do.
West central Michigan along the lake shore
A sign of a good gardener is not a green thumb, rather it is brown knees.
West central Michigan along the lake shore
A sign of a good gardener is not a green thumb, rather it is brown knees.
(post #12020, reply #5 of 37)
I agree whole heartedly, having once been a 100% organic gardening. By taking the stance that you either are or aren't "organic," People get turned off by the organic crowd. I'd rather see people be "mostly organic" than to feel like it's all or nothing, so might as well do nothing organic. We ALL have an impact, just by existing. We need to feel good about what we can avoid, not feel bad about what we feel we need to do.
Jeana
Never try to baptize a cat.
(post #12020, reply #6 of 37)
This discussion is why we ran the little piece in Garden Guru to begin with. Many people took us to task because the answer says that if you are going to call yourself an organic gardener, you should garden organically, even if it means losing a plant.
This is not the magazine's stance. It is just a little column to spark discussion. Our staff is divided as to whether they would turn to a non-organic remedy to save a plant. That is how we knew it would be something interesting to run.
Personally --not speaking for the magazine-- I wouldn't turn to the non-organic method. I don't want synthetic stuff around my young children, and I don't have time to coddle anything. If it is going to die, then I will have to live with that.
Being 100% organic is difficult. It is hard to know what is/is not safe. And being environmentally responsible is even harder. Do I waste water to clean a dish or add to the landfill with a paper plate? Do I drive farther to get an organic ingredient? I wish I had answers to this stuff.
If you could attach a percentage to your organic-ness, what would it be? I use Round-Up on poison ivy, synthetic fertilizer and peat moss in containers (but I would use coir if I could find it more easily). I give myself an 80%.
(post #12020, reply #7 of 37)
I was really offended by that column. Where *do* we draw the line? Do we forego gas-powered tools? Metal tools? Electricity? Indoor plumbing? We ALL have an impact. Labeling someone as not being "organic" because they use a synthetic product to save a tree is absurd.
I'm generally all about letting a plant fend for itself. But if I feel like I need to use a chemical to save a tree, it doesn't diminish my efforts to keep my yard "clean." I'm really tired of people being slapped for doing what "organics" think they shouldn't, rather than patting people on the back for what they do in an effort to be better stewards of their yards and the world. That's not how to win people over.
Jeana
Never try to baptize a cat.
(post #12020, reply #9 of 37)
Jeana,
I would hope that rather than be offended, you would be happy to have a chance to say what you just said. Before that column there really was no discussion about whether it is OK to not be 100% organic. I will bet that because of your reaction (and others) many people are feeling better about their practices.
(An aside: why didn't the answer say it was OK to not be 100% organic? First, that wasn't really what the question was about. Second, a group of people were going to be offended whichever side the answer came down on. Third, if most people agree with an answer, they don't respond and we can't hear their voice.)
What I find interesting regarding all the responses I've gotten ( be they oral, written, electronic, or burning on my front lawn) is what people read into the question and the answer. It dealt with organic gardening, not environmental responsibility (note the irony built into the answer). It never said the questioner was a bad person, a fool, or was the root cause of all that is wrong with the world.
I love all the discussion this has generated. It gets at the real actions and real feelings of real gardeners (I do wish, however, people would stop getting mad at me). I can't tell you how many times I have had to talk an author out of writing what he thinks gardeners should do and tell us what he actually does.
Sorry to ramble. Keep talking.
(post #12020, reply #10 of 37)
You make some very good points about getting the discussion out there. I have been gardening for more than 40 years now thru 4 diferent states and incredibly different conditions. Each time we moved it was a new learning experience. I also own way too many garden books and have read and subscribed to a lot of gardening magazines. The smartest thing I ever did was come to the realization that about 90% of the gardening advise out there will not apply to your particular situation. And the minute I read garden advise that starts out "you must" I tune it out. That is usually written by very young gardeners who have very little practical experience as yet. I also suspect that gardeners who have only ever gardened in one zone don't quite understand the incredible variables one might have to deal with. I like the interaction on this blog and though I have years of experience gardening I have picked up some very useful tips here. I'd also like to throw in that I have checked out a couple of other blogs, but never use them, as this one is by far the easiest one to navigate for a computer novice like me. And I hope people aren't really burning things on your lawn!!!!!!
(post #12020, reply #11 of 37)
Just to clarify, I wasn't mad at you. I was really irked at FG for printing that stilted and holier-than-thou *opinion*. It wasn't fact since, as I pointed out, we all have an impact. No one is 100% organic IMO. Judging someone to be 100% organic or not organic is not the job of FG. It wasn't written by FG, but FG chose to run it. And it perpetuates that insidious attitude that "you're either one of us or you're not."
It gets old having to fight the same old fight over and over and over, right here on this otherwise great board. I expect more of FG than to judge people. I don't need to pay to see that.
Jeana
Never try to baptize a cat.
(post #12020, reply #12 of 37)
What I find interesting is the degree of sensitivity on the issue, including my own. Two of the more intereting posts (IMO) were the first one and Kimm's. I disagree with the first; one can be partly organic or mostly organic. If one is, and you and I are (80-90% anyway), then it's just a matter of accepting and acknowledging that one isn't totally organic - if it matters. Kimm's question in the first paragraph is right on; the problem then is where do you draw the line. The question is also, however, who gets to draw that line for you and me. It is this last question, I would surmise, that triggers the emotional responses.
P.S. Like Jeana, I'm not mad at you either.
Marty
"The plants have been good to us." Lester Hawkins
Marty
"The plants have been good to us." Lester Hawkins
(post #12020, reply #13 of 37)
An interesting stat that has come up in a bunch of studies on Gen X and Y is that they are much more likely to be environmentally conscious and prefer organic approaches and products. When asked why they have these preferences, the overwhelming percentages answer "because it is better for me" as opposed to "because it is better for the environment."
(Note: I am wary of studies -- and statements-- that put entire generations in a box. But this is interesting nonetheless)
(post #12020, reply #14 of 37)
Wow, that's a fantastic insight. I share your wariness of generalizations, but I'm also disturbed by how often they're true. One thing I have noticed is how many of my fellow Boomers make the same criticisms of the younger generations that our parents' generation said about us. So, even if this current observation is symptomatic, I think you just need to give them time. You're and X-er, aren't you? Kids still at home is why I assume it.
Marty
"The plants have been good to us." Lester Hawkins
Marty
"The plants have been good to us." Lester Hawkins
(post #12020, reply #16 of 37)
Am I an X-er? It depends on who is defining that. I will be 40 in August (ugh). I don't feel like the younger generation. Different marketers define it differently.
As I talk to people in their 20s and 30s, I am finding that their health is the primary reason behind their environmental awareness. Not the only one, but it usually comes first.
I attach no judgement to any of that.
(post #12020, reply #17 of 37)
And that's better than nothing. I'm not going to smack people on the knuckles for being concerned about their health without (yet) seeing the big picture. It's a start and I applaud it. They don't have to have my view - we're all *trying* and *that's* what's important. Progress, not perfection.
Jeana
Never try to baptize a cat.
(post #12020, reply #18 of 37)
Well this will probably set off a firestorm; but anyway here’s my observation from 25 years in the fertilizer and 20 years as a commercial F & V grower. And by the way this probably applies less to this group than the general population (at least people here are willing to get their hands dirty).
Most of the people who insist on organic are also the first ones to walk away from blemished produce or want picture perfect lawns. Our parents knew what things looked like direct from the garden and were not the least concerned with the need to cut out worms & blemishes. The position of many seems to be “ I have a college degree that says I know how to decide things for any issue so don’t bother me with facts”.
One of the most likely sources of food infection which may be a health hazard almost always traces back to improperly composted animal manure. E-Coli H57 O111 is a serious hazard and it’s only source is animals.
Some of the so-called organic pesticides must be used in such heavy doses that they are also harmful.
Mineral fertilizer at its time of uptake by plants is exactly the same chemical as that released from decomposing soil or plant mater materials. The problem with it’s use is improper incorporation so as to minimize runoff.
The Japaneese commercial growers are very effective in controlling worm damage to fruit by manually enclosing each piece in protective bags from just after the time of pollination. Do you believe US buyers in general would pay the higher cost of fruit resulting from that much labor cost.
Edited 4/11/2009 10:52 am ET by jimcco
(post #12020, reply #19 of 37)
"Most of the people who insist on organic are also the first ones to walk away from blemished produce or want picture perfect lawns. Our parents knew what things looked like direct from the garden and were not the least
concerned with the need to cut out worms & blemishes.
One of the most likely sources of food infection which may be a health hazard almost always traces
back to improperly composted animal manure. "
I must disagree with your first statement. Most organic gardeners are fair less likely to be bothered by blemishes on fruits and vegetables, much less have a perfect lawn (a huge waste of resources, if ever there was one). However, the general public has been "encouraged" and conditioned to expect picture perfect fruit and vegetables. Fortunately, I think that is beginning to change as more and more seem to be becoming involved in this "green" movement.
My DH and I have grown both vegetables and fruit and nut trees for over 30 years using organic methods only with good success. I think the key is to build the healthiest soil possible. You are certainly right about the danger of not properly composting animal manurers and one way to get around that is to aerate compost tea and use that, the aeration kills of the pathogens. It's easy to do and there are many Website that not only give excellent explanations, but also provide directions on how to build a home made aerator on the cheap.
As for organic pesticides......the bottom line is: just because it's labeled organic does not mean it is not toxic! And if your using more to kill off pests, then something is lacking in the balance of your plants and soil. This is not "nuclear material". You are not going to get "total kill" of pests etc as you would if you were using a commercial pesticide. It doesn't work that way. You need to be observant about what's going on in the problem area. Sometimes you need to plan ahead a bit and interplant trap crops for particular pests. Such as using radishes in among your squash and cukes, squash and cuke beetles will go for those first. The damaged and diseased radishes can be pulled up and discarded. That's just one example of things you can do to help keep a multitude of pests at bay. Know your "enemy"! LOL It also helps to plant and maintain habitat for beneficial insects that prey on the "bad" bugs.
I've also recently started working with probiotic microbes to improve the health of my soil, which is good to begin with. I've had great success by using a mother culture of the bacterial normally found in the soil and adding it in a liquid form to a mixture of water and black strap molasses. It increases the numbers of normal bacteria in the soil, which may be minimal because of poor soil management practices among other things. They cause a cellular level chemical reaction to take place so that the plant's roots can gather maximum nutrients from the surround soil area. I use 1 teaspoon per gallon of water once a week on everything, include what little lawn we have. The results have been remarkable. I am impressed, and this is totally organic, non toxic to humans and animals and biodegradable over time. Good stuff, I felt like I had hit the mother load! LOL
(post #12020, reply #20 of 37)
I firmly support much of what you've said, with one disagreement and one caution. The presence of diseases and pests is not always an indication of either poor soil or a problem plant. The strongest can and are attacked; that's why there aren't any native chestnuts left to speak of. On the use of bacteria, a word of caution. Using anything to excess does not lead to a healthier plant or soil; it leads to a plant that becomes dependent on that excess. Whether you're adding fertilizer, bacteria or mycorhizal fungi, frequent dosing has the same effect as long-term steroid use in people. We were all led down the path to chemical use a few decades ago by the same promises and enticements that you now offer for probiotic microbes. If you had a good healthy garden to begin with, what do you need them for?
Marty
"The plants have been good to us." Lester Hawkins
Marty
"The plants have been good to us." Lester Hawkins
(post #12020, reply #21 of 37)
There's a big difference between using a synthetic based chemical pesticide, fertilizer and using a microbe that is normally present in the soil. They get killed of by us using those pesticides, fertilizers etc. Probiotics are NOT drugs, nor are they man made.
It's an apple vs oranges kind a deal. These bacteria and fungi are the good guys. They are not pathogens! Because they are natural, they are non toxic to humans, plants or animals. You do not have to continue to use these once you get your soil up to optimum and hopefully you've stopped using the "nuclear stuff" on your lawn and garden, so they have a chance to keep multiplying and benefiting your soil.
There is plenty of scientific proof on the benefits of using these microbes done by independent researchers and worldwide.
I'd be far more concerned about one of my neighbors using GMO seed in his garden, I don't want to share that garbage, thanks so much!
(post #12020, reply #22 of 37)
I'm absolutely with you on the GMO's. We had a scare here a few years back when Monsanto and Scott's got together and produced a roundup resistant bent grass for golf courses to use. In any setting but a golf green bent grass is a pest species, and we were concerned about this thing crossing with the unwanted. They swore it wouldn't and then discovered that it would and found its pollen over twenty miles downwind of the test plot. Fortunately it was never brought to market.
I think you may be missing my point on the probiotic use, and you didn't answer my question. You say that because they are natural they are non-toxic. I'm sorry, but that's simply not a true statement. Salmonella is both natural and toxic, so is swine flue, so are a whole host of other natural organisms. Adding a naturally occurring microbe that is normally present in the soil but which has been killed off makes total sense to me, and I support it. But you imply that you already have healthy soil and are now adding it on a weekly basis. Too much of anything is not good practice, so my question remains the same, if you have a good, healthy soil why do you need to add more? If they can sustain themselves and even multiply why do you need to add more. I am asking, by the way, not arguing, because I agree with the practice of using it but question the dosage rate.
There is also one question that arose for me when the use of mycorrhizal fungi became popular a few years back: given that there are thousands of species of these fungi, how do we know that we aren't introducing the purple loosestrife of the mycorrhizal world into our soil? That you are generating your own at home would probably render the question moot, but I asked it of a professor at OSU who has worked intensively on the subject. His response, simply put, is that we don't, so I don't use the commercial product at all.
Marty
"The plants have been good to us." Lester Hawkins
Marty
"The plants have been good to us." Lester Hawkins
(post #12020, reply #23 of 37)
I suggest you try these websites, I think it will explain more than I can. I can tell you I've seen an increase in production of my crops and my houseplants are doing much better since I started using this method.
http://eminfo.vmicrobial.info/
http://www.emamerica.com/
I am continually amazed at the versatility of this method and the more I read the more impressed I've become. The fact that this has been thoroughly tested by many highly reputable independent research facilities is something else that gets my attention. These guys are not every distant cousins or buddies of our good friends at Monsanto and Scott. They are operating on the same wave length at all.
Hopefully, the info found on those sites can answer your questions and concerns better than I can. How can soil ever be too healthy?
(post #12020, reply #24 of 37)
"How can soil ever be too healthy?"
But you still haven't answered Marty's question. Too much of several vitamins is toxic, or at least bad for you; why shouldn't the same be true of your addition?
(post #12020, reply #25 of 37)
You are doing an apples and oranges comparison. The human body and the soil don't work the same way. The biochemical reactions are very different, so it's not really valid to worry about that. These bacteria are not pathogens, there is a difference. Mycorrhizal are fungi so they also their chemical interaction is whole different area as well.
This is a very complex subject and I'm still working on gathering more information and understand the relationships and how they work.
You pose good questions and I like this type of discussion since it allows for diverse views in a respectful setting. Everybody learns that way :)
(post #12020, reply #26 of 37)
Barbara Damrosch's column in yesterdays Post dealt with the reaction by the agricultural industry to Michele Obama's organic garden at the White House. They seemed to be demanding that the First Family also plant a "normal' garden. One of the writers of the response said that she "shudders to think of an organic garden" at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
Y'know, although I'm not an organic gardener, I had thought that organic was about as normal as you can get in gardening.
BJ
(post #12020, reply #27 of 37)
I'm new at this. What's a "normal" garden?
Water is a great ingredient to cook with, it has such a neutral flavor - Bobby Flay
(post #12020, reply #28 of 37)
Apparently the writer of that comment thinks a garden is not normal unless one uses chemicals. I find it hard to believe anyone would actually criticise the Obamas for putting in an organic garden. It had to be someone in the chemical business!
(post #12020, reply #29 of 37)
I'm amazed that people are still so "backward" about understanding the concept of organic gardening. sigh
(post #12020, reply #30 of 37)
What's really ironic is that organic gardeners are actually "backward", they go "back" to doing it the way it was done before chemicals came along.
Marty
"The plants have been good to us." Lester Hawkins
Marty
"The plants have been good to us." Lester Hawkins
(post #12020, reply #33 of 37)
There was someone associated with the industry (under the guise of what is supposed to sound like a office related to health). He suggested that MO was threatening people. That only the well-to-do could afford to do organic gardens and that people following in her footsteps would suffer from malnutrition and starve (no food in the winter) and that cancer and other other diseases would go through the roof. Wow, I wonder if I have any diazanon laying around that I can go throw out in the yard before I get sick.
Jeana
Never try to baptize a cat.
(post #12020, reply #34 of 37)
Golly gee! That mean we destroyed all that great DDT! And we're all gonna sicken and die immediately!! LOL Hmmm, I suppose all that good stuff he's advocating doesn't case stupid> cause it looks like he might have that issue going on, or maybe it's just "anything" to make a buck?
Amazing, that these guys think people will believe that line of carp!