Open letter to Taunton’s Forum Users

JasonRevzon's picture

I have been reading, with growing consternation, the posts related to the switch from mZinga to Drupal based forums. They have ranged from grudging acceptance to mild mourning to xenophobic howls of rage. I am used to this. My career started in moderating message boards and chats at AOL’s Digital City more than 13 years ago. I remember the switch from AOL-style message boards to HTML, so I knew there would be pain in any change. Many complaints, however, have been couched in language so hurtful to the people who build Taunton’s popular and award-winning sites that I feel I need to address the issues.

  • The original forum was better; this new site looks like it was made by one-handed monkeys using COBOL; bring back my frames: We understand that changing a system you are used to using every day for a number of years can and will be upsetting. It’s akin to someone rearranging your furniture and painting your walls at home while you’re out at work. That said, the long-process the small group of talented people at Taunton Interactive (tech and editorial) went through to launch the new forums with as many features as we could preserve and all of the years worth of your posting data intact, without more than a day’s worth of downtime, was monumental. Is the new forum everything you hoped and dreamed for? No, and us neither. Drupal is, however, an easily updated framework that can be changed directly by the online producers (want comments in reverse chronological order? Change length before pagination? We can do that.) on a regular basis to make it a more perfect experience for everyone involved. We will also be making changes so that you can set your own themes and preferences to view the forums. It is, in my opinion, much better than what we had, and with years of minor and major improvements to come.
  • You are greedy, it’s all about the money OR you’re killing a goldmine: Yes, it is (in part) about money. It was costing us tens of thousands of dollars to host the free mZinga forums. They were run at an almost complete loss. They were invisible to Google and the rest of our sites and had few ads. So, in a time of drastic financial upset in the publishing world we had three choices: make a cut (person or project), remove the forums, or find a way to keep the forums while drastically lowering costs. We think the forums represent a vibrant community feature and went with #3.
  • You didn’t listen enough/much/at all to our suggestions or complaints: We went through a very deliberate process with a Forums Task Force made up of web producers (Matt, Gina, Robyn, Kate & Vicky) who solicited feedback before we launched into the process. Some things could be done at launch, some afterward, and some could not/would not be done at all. We did read all of the feedback, assigned priorities to changes and will be listening for constructive criticism to improve the forums on a regular basis.
  • Taunton hates us; we hate Taunton; let’s take our ball and go home: What can I say to this? Taunton is a very ethical company with decades of producing the highest-quality content and communities for enthusiasts. We take our role in each community, and the members of those communities, very seriously. No decision is made lightly and never for venial reasons. If any of you feel so strongly that Taunton no longer represents the best way to interact with others about building, gardening, woodworking, sewing and cooking and want to form your own groups or forums on other sites, we wish you well. For those who would like to change what’s here for the better, we are always open to constructive criticism and offers of help. Personal and off-topic attacks, however, will be removed.

Thank you for your time and patience. Remember, there are real people (with real names) working long hours behind all of our content you see online. The person you talk to from Taunton in a discussion about formatting your post may have just finished a video shoot from a job site or may be working on a how-to article on planting shrubs. We are a small, but dedicated crew who will strive to give you our best and use the latest in technology to do so. We look forward to growing with you as Taunton Interactive continues to expand online and beyond.

Jason Revzon

VP, Taunton Interactive

1946's picture

Okay, here's the thing to (post #15946, reply #1 of 7)

Okay, here's the thing to most of us. There was a really good easy to use site that MANY people really liked using, and it was easy for us computer novices to navigate through. You "improved?" it by removing all the good features and replacing it with a difficult confusing site that takes about five times as long to read through as the old one did. Seriously, how would you not think people would be enraged? I am not trying to be rude, but to us non-technos this just makes zero sense. You said you solicited feedback before you launched this site. From whom? Because I really would like to figure out the mind of anyone who thought this was even close to being a better format. Try running this past your mother or better yet, grandmother, if you still have one and see what they say. Here are my most basic problems with this:
The easiest on the eyes format for us olders is black type on a white background. Get those ugly yellow blocks out of there and just put a simple black line between posts.
The column on the left with the subject listings should scroll separately from the center section with the postings.
Return the email notifications when we get a specific reply to our postings.
In the box for comment, the type comes up very small, and is harder to read than the rest of the page (maybe this is just my computer doing this?) If not, could you change that?
On the old forum, after you had read the current postings, the next time you clicked on the page the ones you had already read were not there and you could go straight to the new ones, but if you wanted to reread something you could go back and get it by clicking on the numbered sections. That was another really good feature. And just post them in the order they came in, with a line saying who it is from and who it is in reply to.
I know other users with more technical knowledge than I have about computer programs can give you more good suggestions. While I agree there is no reason for us to be rude, please understand it is just our frustrations coming through. I also understand this has to be paid for and I don't care if there are ads on the site, because just like reading a magazine, it's not that hard to ignore the ones you don't want to read. Just keep this word in large block letters in front of your programers: SIMPLIFY
Please keep trying to fix this!!!! And obviously change the save button to POST.

the country gardener's picture

Jason, there is an aspect to (post #15946, reply #2 of 7)

Jason,
there is an aspect to all of this that I think you may have missed entirely, the human part. The comments that have been posted by so many in the weeks since the new format was unveiled have pointed to what we want changed and asked questions we want answered. The emotion, including the hostility, are a response to loss, a deep and meaningful loss. These forums, which everyone understands Taunton owns, have become a home-away-from-home for a huge number of people. There is a huge family here, almost literally. Dozens of the regulars have reached out and connected in the real world with friends made here. When the format changed, we found ourselves not understanding the new surroundings and unable to figure out how to make it work. In many ways it doesn't work; some of the functions don't work as even you know they are supposed to. And that hit us on a personal level, because it impacted those very meaningful relationships, threatened to disrupt them.
So many of us moved on to create and participate in the Delphi sites as a way of staying together, hoping all the while that the Taunton sites will eventually evolve into something useable again. We still don't know and, frankly, your letter is not altogether encouraging. That's true for two reasons. First, because you have stated that it "is,in my opinion, much better than what we had." Jason, believe me, no one on the receiving end agrees with you at all. Second, because you have rather patronizingly and with scarecly a second thought wished us all well if we choose to depart for good.
If I choose to leave I can assure you I will wish all at Taunton well with significantly more sincerity than that. Your new format, should we all depart, may well wind up working fine in the long run, but it won't be what it was. And that will be a loss worth mourning. It is your failure to recognize the significance of the possible loss that disturbs me I think more than any of the changes you have wrought. I made a comment recently that was misunderstood by Kate, and it led her to feel uncomfortable. I regret that; it wasn't my intent. she thought I believed you should be fired for making these software changes. I don't, at all. I said that I thought your job should be in jeopardy; in all sincerity, I do. If you don't understand fully what's at risk here, it should be. If you believe putting an untested model out with inadequate instructions was the best way of doing this, it should be. If you expect us to continue to wait and wait for even minor improvements and not see any is acceptable, it should be. And if you honestly believe this is better than what we had, it should be.
Sincerely and honestly, I wish you the best of luck in the days and weeks to come, whether I choose to wait it out or not. And my deepest thanks and appreciation go out to your staff for all their efforts, both throughout this ordeal and in years past.
Sincerely,
Martin L. Gascoyne,
The Country Gardener

Marty

"The plants have been good to us."  Lester Hawkins

bkacker's picture

Oh, Marty, I have tears in my (post #15946, reply #3 of 7)

Oh, Marty, I have tears in my eyes. You have expressed so eloquently what we have (had?) on this forum. Thank you for taking the time to put all of our reactions into coherent words.

Change is difficult but I think all of us were prepared to accommodate change. The change is not the hard part here; it's the fact that we can't get this to work which is frustrating. So instead of exchanging gardening information, we're trying to figure out how to navigate this forum. Mr. Revzon's analogy about re-arranging furniture and painting the walls a different color doesn't quite hold true. If someone did re-arrange my furniture and paint my walls; it would be DIFFERENT, but it would still WORK. This change doesn't work; and that's the problem.

southernsoil's picture

This reply is to Jason. When (post #15946, reply #4 of 7)

This reply is to Jason. When do you plan on fixing this forum? I am still posting here but do not see any improvement as yet. I am sure some more members will return when all of the bugs are gone. Or at least most of them.

gardengal4's picture

I'm not a regular here at (post #15946, reply #5 of 7)

I'm not a regular here at all. Just pop in from time to time, but thought I would chime in with my $.02 anyhow.

I am generally extremely opposed to change in my tech environment. If it's not broke, don't fix it is my motto. However, eventually the technology does move forward and sometimes you have to go with the flow. When I reluctantly had to switch from XP to Windows 7 on a new PC, I decided it was time to bite the bullet and modernize my ways. I decided I would finally give up all the "classic" themes. Well, good decision! WIN7 doesn't offer them! Several other things I was used to are missing. I grumbled and researched alternatives and actually found better solutions and I am finding new welcome features all the time. Now i just need to make new habits to truly take advantage.

So try to be open to change. I can't specifically recall the navigation capabilities of the old style, but I have a vague recollection that it was cluttered and unintuitive compared to other forums I hang out at. Maybe that's why I didn't become a regular. Perhaps if I was a regular, I would be complaining as loudly, but at first glance, this forum style seems fine to me. (2nd post of the day, admitted credibility is questionable). On the other hand, if there are bugs, that's another story. patience.

-gardengal
an old time COBOL programmer - so watch the monkey remarks :-)

Dagwood's picture

Thanks Gardengal, its great (post #15946, reply #6 of 7)

Thanks Gardengal, its great to see fresh perspective. I hope you stick around!

If it can die, I can kill it.
Certified Brown Thumb, 4th degree

jeana's picture

Or join us on Delphi so you (post #15946, reply #7 of 7)

Or join us on Delphi so you can refresh your memory as to how easy the old format was.

Jeana Never try to baptize a cat.