Seeking apple tree spray advice
Seeking apple tree spray advice (post #12721)
CuDavid on Sun, 01/11/2009 - 17:51
Hi to all, I have had 8 dwarfs, various types for about 8 to 9 years. I always sprayed oil in spring, then some spray I got at a farm supply years and years ago every 2 weeks, did ok on the crop.
Last year I had none of the spray left, so being a MORON I read an old Sevin container that said it would work, I mixed, sprayed, and not 1 apple on all 8 trees! I am assuming sevin had settled from prevouus users and when I mixed I did so too strong.
So new year coming, want to do it right. I always prunen, and am seeing advive on what opters use and how often to spray, as I ruined all of last years crop. Thanks, Dave
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(post #12721, reply #1 of 20)
I don't know where you live, but our apple trees had no apples on them last year either, and we did not spray with anything. Could it have been a weather-related problem instead? A hard freeze at just the wrong time can wreak havoc with the blossoms, which I think is what happened here.
(post #12721, reply #2 of 20)
The lack of bees may have contibuted to your lack of fruit, weather may have been a factor (a hard freeze just at blossom time), many things, that the spraying may not have anything to do with. How was the blossoming? What was your weather at that time.
The best place tro find out what to spray as well as when to spray is your local state universities USDA Cooeprative Extension Service office.
West central Michigan along the lake shore
A sign of a good gardener is not a green thumb, rather it is brown knees.
West central Michigan along the lake shore
A sign of a good gardener is not a green thumb, rather it is brown knees.
(post #12721, reply #3 of 20)
KimmSr is right. They'll know what you need to use in your area.
(post #12721, reply #4 of 20)
If you use any kind of poison spray you are defeating your own purpose, that of growing apples. Bees do not last long if sprayed with any kind of poison, and trees will not produce fruit unless there are bees and other pollinators to pollinate.
If you have trouble with wormy apples it is because you need to get rid of the moths which tunnel into the bottom of the tiny new apple and eat their way up into the center of the apple. Not fun to find you have cut into a worm and apple together. A non poisonous oil spray can be used to prevent that problem, applied at the correct time of the season.
New Mexico home organic gardener
Adopt the pace of nature; her secret is patience. Emerson
Edited 1/12/2009 4:45 pm by Astrid
(post #12721, reply #5 of 20)
Astrid,
Your post just shows lack of knowledge of pest management!!!!
There are multiple pests of apples; bacterial diseases, fungal diseases, viral diseases, leaf eating insects, fruit infecting insects and deficency problems.
Growers need to understand how, when and what to use for each one. That is Intigrated Pest Management (IPM). To flatly say to not use an appropriate treatement because it will harm the bees is "don't give me facts, I am able to decide what is proper" mentality.
1)treatment for apples scab is effective and non harmfull to insects when applied using appropriate materials when the trees are in bloom. If done correctly in home orchard settings where pest pressure is low; no treatment is required on the fruit.
2) treatment for coddling moth and apple maggot is done after ALL petals are off the trees. a) there are no bees in the orchard when there are no blooms and b) these 2 insects infect only growing fruit. NO FLOWERS SOOOO NO BEES PRESENT.
3) treatment for tree attacking insects is done prior to bloom with oil. Again NO FLOWERS SOOOO NO BEES PRESENT.
4)treatment for sooty blotch and fly speck require use of very specific bactericides. This is done in mid summer and again is not harmful to bees; but again NO FLOWERS SOOOO NO BEES PRESENT. Beside these 2 pests are not damageing to the fruit and in home orchard environment should not be treated at all. The blemishes are to appearance only and can be scrubbbed of the fruit.
Jim Andersen
(post #12721, reply #6 of 20)
Jim, please don't attract our dear Astrid so harshly.
BJ
(post #12721, reply #7 of 20)
My Goodness - we're all friends here ! If we don't necessarily agree with someone, we still like to be cautious in our reply, just to be nice .
(post #12721, reply #8 of 20)
Ooops! I was giving a simple answer, vague and not instructive, to a someone who was asking a good question, I must admit. Not being an expert myself, I gave it what came to mind at the moment, I'm sorry I wasn't very helpful, and even incorrect.
Thank you for the correct information, which is what the person asking for advice was doing, after all. I hope the inquirer will come back and get some good correct information.
I hope I can get out of messing things up... and, I have a little red peach tree which I got as a whip and suddenly realized this year that it had been so surrounded by my vegetable garden for some time that it had grown up to a nice 3-4 ft. size with a good all round shape. What can you tell me about peaches that I should know?
Thanks in advance!
New Mexico home organic gardener
Adopt the pace of nature; her secret is patience. Emerson
Edited 1/13/2009 7:15 pm by Astrid
(post #12721, reply #13 of 20)
Now, darling! Don't you get down on yourself. I you look at that guys profile, you'll see he's an expert with zee fruity trees!??? You know personally I know nada about nothing but succulents, I would've indeed said the same as you, because you were trying to help, it came from your heart. We've all addressed this nice man about addressing you in such a manner, but I also welcomed him, because, after all, we don't want anyone to think they're not wanted, especially when we NEED OUR EXPERTS, so?!!! Right, sweetie! You did nothing wrong, it just got under his skin a bit. Experts, with years in the field, can be like that. I'm sure he'll get the drift as he reads on about how we all help each other here,and wouldn't life be boring as all get out, if we all knew the same dang things??? What would we have to talk about then. I want you to know I'm not alone in knowing you to be one of, if not THE sweetest, most lovely, ladies, we have here!! Now you know me well enough to know that I MEAN EVERY WORD I'M TELLING YOU! WE ALL LOVE YOU! So don't worry about a thing! I know it hurts, but for myself, it always helps me to be taken down a peg (my story now) when I think I've got it all going, My guy will set me straight, if need be, we do that for each other! It's love for us, diff when a stranger does it, I get that. I'm just saying that I can get up ON MY HIGH HORSE SOME DAYS, AND BOY DO I EVER NEED SOMEONE TO PULL ME BACK DOWN TO EARTH = LIKE I SAID, MY STORY = just so you know, you're not alone!! I love you, we all love you, never doubt that for a mili-second, ok??? Thanks sweetie, and how are those tender fuzzies doing now??? Inside yet??? See, there I go again, thinking I know something??? Tee Hee!!!I'll try to send you a funny joke a friend sent me, though the email system here. Might take me a while to figure out, I'm kind of (HA) computer illiterate!!! And that's putting it mildly, Tee Hee Hee, love Rebecca in Tucson, AZ
live, laugh, love, Rebecca
Check out GoSucculent.com ask anyone!!
(post #12721, reply #18 of 20)
New kid on Net - spare us all this emoting and stick to gardening! Lunaria
Edited 1/25/2009 1:28 pm ET by Lunaria
(post #12721, reply #19 of 20)
I didn't realize that this is a "facts only" board. Oh wait, it isn't.
(post #12721, reply #20 of 20)
Perhaps you're right, then again, I believe this is a place to make friends, and in my book, friends stick up for one another. Astrid is MY FRIEND! That's that! Good luck and Happy - soft - Landings!
live, laugh, love, Rebecca
Check out GoSucculent.com ask anyone!!
(post #12721, reply #9 of 20)
I just bought a new house with an existing small mature orchard of cherry, apple, plum and pear. I will start the pruning this winter as they have been neglected. I will also do the dormant oil spray but am not sure what to use or when for any of the other sprays, especially on the apple. The cherries, plums and pears were beautiful, even though they were eaten by our furry and feathered friends. The apples, one produced a few yellow friut and the other a late crispy juicy apple, were very small and wormy and scabby. I would prefer not to use any strong chemical sprays, can you recommend something less harmful but still effective and also give specifac spray times. How effective are the sticky traps? I had a friend who had a semidwarf apple planted in the middle of her small veggie garden, the soil was wonderful and rich and I have never seen a more healthy and prolific apple tree in my life and there was not a worm or mark on the fruit, which were large and picture perfect. I think that well fed plants are the heathiest anyway. I am hoping to keep the soil around my plants worked up and well fed like hers. Lots of compost.
(post #12721, reply #10 of 20)
Let's start with the stone fruit. Both cherry and plum (I asume red tart pie cherries and european prune type plums).
1) Prune out dead wood and prune smaller branches that are drooping or very upright by about 1/3 to an outward facing bud. Do this in stages oger 3 years so as not to remove all the fruiting wood at on time.
2) Dormant Oil for Mites & scale. These are controlled with an oil spray when trees are fully dormant. This is the most talked about pest control spray in casual garden circles. Its effective control is only Mites and Scale insects and by the time these were a serrious problem in the trees, the borers would have effectively wiped out the trees. OIL DOES NOT CONTROL DISEASE OR FRUIT INFECTING INSECTS.
3)Brown rot &/or blossom rot are the major causes of poor fruit. The best disease program is pre bloom Kocide (a copper hydroxide) for bacterial diseases and Bravo or Captan for fungal diseases then use the fungacide again at 7-10 day intervals from first bloom thru the next month. I prefer Bravo as it is milder and Captan has a 4 day reentry (it is a strong eye irritant).
4) The more difficult problem is plum curculio which ends up like worms in apples indide the fruit. The effective sprays(Guthion, Imidan or Asana) are very restricted use and unavailable to non certified applicators. Other materials just don't do an effective job. But if available they need to go on every 7-10 days starting when blooms are gone so as to not harm the bees.
5) Peach tree borers; these insects infect the tree itself by tunneling under the bark and so killing branches and the whole tree. You as a home grower cannot buy materials that will control these critters. If you find under bark damage, call in a professional.
With the plums and peaches you need a hand thinning program to get nice fruit. You start this with an effective yearly dormant pruning to reduce fruit load. Then hand thin plums to 3 inches and peaches to 7 inches apart on the limb. Do this when fruit is about the size of a quarter.
Apples and Pears
1) Prune out dead wood and prune smaller branches that are drooping or very upright by about 1/3 to an outward facing bud. Do this in stages oger 3 years so as not to remove all the fruiting wood at on time. Over time remove whole limbs at the trunk to renew fruting wood and let in light. Light penitration is more important for apples and pears than for stone fruit as the folage is more dense. In mid summer you should be able to lie on your back under the tree asn see the sun thru the branches; if not remove more branches to het good fruit set thruout the tree.
2) Dormant Oil for Mites & scale. SEE ABOVE
3) Fireblight at dormant or when leaf buds just turn sliver on the tip Bordeau Mixture or preferably Kocide (copper hydroxide)
4)Primary scab- when leaves are showing green tips again at 1/2 inch green, again at tight bloom cluster, again at pink bloom tip, again at full bloom and again at petal fall. 2 more applications at 10 day intervals with your worm sprays may be needed. Probably the only material available for home use is Captan. There are other materials like Nova with longer effective period so less sprays are required but not for home use. I know this seems like a lot of applications but the object is to control the disease before the mature fruit is presant so as to not need to treat the fruit. The first infection is thru the bloom not the fruit skin.
5) Tree and leaf insects. This is difficult for home growers as effective materials are not available for home use. My prefured material is Asana included with the Scab spray above up until the blooms open. Then discontinue. Diazinon is partially effective for this use and may be available to you.
6) Now "the worm in the apple problem" Codling moth and Apple maggot. First the holes in the apples are not from the worms crawling in; they are from the worm stage of the insect eating it's way out. To control them we must spray with a material that leaves a residue on the fruit when it is very small at the time the moth or fly is there trying to find a place to insert an egg. So sprays on the blooms when the bees are presant do nothing but kill bees, Likewise it is unproductive to spray when fruit is mature and holes evident as the harm is already done. Probably the only material available to you as a home grower is Diazinon or Sevin. They need to go on at petal fall and at 10-14 day intervals for 3-4 more applications. BTY, Sevin is hell on bees, don't use it if there are dandilions on the orchard floor.
An interesting alternative being practiced in Asia is to enclose the imature fruit each in glassine bags. A lot of hand labor and no control of Scab; but no insecticides on the fruit.
7) Summer diseases, Sooty Blotch and Fly Spec, As I said in my original post, I wouldnt spray for this. It is cosmetic and can be scrubbed of the ripe fruit at harvest wit a dilute bleach solution.
The point of this long post is that control of pests in fruit is very complicated and using the right material at the wrong time does no good. Likewise doing nothing will only have the effect of taking you back where our grandparents were. They lived with blemished fruit and cut out worm holes. It is a contemporary grocery store mentality that fruit is naturally blemish free.
(post #12721, reply #11 of 20)
Thank you for the info. Most of these chemicals aren't available in Canada but we have good organic alteratives. I think that the most important thing is the timing.
The glassine envelope idea was very intriguing!
I don't mind a few wormholes anyway,
I do have lots of pruning to do and that will help a lot.
(post #12721, reply #14 of 20)
The most relevant concept is that if you want produce to look like it does in the grocery you will probably have to use the same products the commercial growers use. Organic materials are generally less effective and require much heavier application.
Growers with new or clean history environments can get by with lower intensity programs; IF they don't have other growers or back-yard plantings near-by supplying inoculum. In other words, if you are in a remote area with a low pressure planting you will probably not need as many of these treatments as you would if you were located in central Michigan.
The fundamental decision is how good you want your produce to look. Having done so contact your extension service for recommendations for programs to achieve that level.
As an aside traping programs using pheromones can significantly reduce treatment schedules. They are generally not effective in removing pests that are in the vicinity.
(post #12721, reply #15 of 20)
It's true about perfect looking fruit. I don't mind some scab and wormholes I just want good tasting and good for me fruit. My location is not near any commercial fruit operation but we are in a rural setting with many old wild apple trees which have grown on from trees planted by original settlers from the 1600's on. Some of the wild trees have fabulous friut. I have a Russet-like apple growing at the edge of the woods which I discovered, small but tasty fruit. There is also a wild ealy yellow fruited tree with apples much like a Transparent. It's great fun tasting all of the wild apples growing around.
I would like to try some of the traps and lures, they are available at our "seed store".
(post #12721, reply #16 of 20)
Some of those old varieties are very good flavor but generally smaller than current ones. You can learn to graft apples. Buy or dig up suckers of a rootstock of a tree size you want then graft on some of those old varities. Once fruting you can cut down the old diseased tree.
If you need spray advice and don't have it in your provence try Cornell Geneva, UMASS, UCON, or Rutgers.
(post #12721, reply #17 of 20)
Would love to try grafting, we did a bit in school a long time ago but easy enough to look up info. Most of the wild trees are on the sides of the road or on old abandoned properties, but they are very large and plentiful. They are incredibly beautiful blooming in the spring. That and we also have loads of serviceberry in our area and it is a sight to behold. I do have a lot of wild cherry with blackknot which I have to get cleaned up on the property. The plum tree does have some. Must get out my pruning gear, and yes I do disinfect my tools.
(post #12721, reply #12 of 20)
Indeed, we mean no offense to you, tis obvious, had anyone besides me, looked at your small profile, would've seen you are the indeed expert on orchards and growing both personal and PROFESSIONALLY FOR MANY YEARS. We only mean to let you know, that Astrid is a much beloved member of our group, just like you are going to become, quite shortly, if not, in fact already!! Even Ms. Astrid herself just said, she didn't mean anything, was just (my words) a knee jerk reaction. Now who among us doesn't know those, first hand?? Am I right, my Man??? Yes, gardening, is a wonderful, frustrating, rewarding, tear your hair out, and bring tears to ones eyes with the beauty of success, business!?! We all have feelings here, we DO WELCOME YOUR EXPERTISE, we only ask that you be a bit patient with those of us who are not at your level. Like myself, I live in the SW Desert of AZ, no apples growing here, I thought your advice, quite good, but all I know at present, are succulents. I can help loads of folks out with that! I hope this helps, We none of us wish to inadvertantly (SP) hurt someone's feelings, that's all! Have a good one, and welcome to our discussion. We need you! RSB from Tucson, AZ
live, laugh, love, Rebecca
Check out GoSucculent.com ask anyone!!